[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

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[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

Gary Edwards via ros-users


The ROSCon Organizing Committee is happy to announce the [ROSCon 2018 Program](https://roscon.ros.org/2018/#program) has been published on the main ROSCon website: https://roscon.ros.org/2018

We're looking forward to seeing these talks in September.

If you haven't registered already, there's just 2 weeks before the early registration deadline.

Registration site can be found [here](https://roscon.regfox.com/roscon-2018). Get your tickets before the price goes up!

See you in Madrid!


Thank you again to our Platinum Sponsor, Erle, and to all of our Gold Sponsors: Amazon, Apple, Clearpath, Eprosima, Fetch Robotics, Google, Locus, Microsoft, ROBOTIS, SICK, Tier IV, Toyota Research Institute, Universal Robots.





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[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

Gary Edwards via ros-users


>From the program:
"Supported by robotics development companies, academic researchers,
the U.S. Government, **and the Open Source Robotics Foundation
itself**, ROS-Military is a multi-faceted approach to effectively
bringing the collaborative success of the ROS ecosystem to U.S.
military robotics ..."

Interesting to see this talk in ROSCon and advertise OSRF
involvement, in particular the same year as Google makes news by
terminating a DoD contract
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/06/01/google-to-drop-pentagon-ai-contract-after-employees-called-it-the-business-of-war).

BTW, What the next killer-application build in ROS with the support of OSRF?





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[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

Gary Edwards via ros-users


I'm very disappointed to see OSRF supporting the U.S. military (or any military for that matter) as well. I get that there's money to be made, but I believe a non-profit charity should not be in the business of war.





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[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

Gary Edwards via ros-users
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@Martin_Guenther, I appreciate your concern and understand your perspective. Id like to add some context to the discussion.



Open Robotics would not exist today without the support of the US Department of Defense (DOD). Back at Willow Garage around 2010-2011 we often talked about creating a separate organization to specifically focus on open source development of ROS & Gazebo. What was missing was a way to fund such an organization. A contract from DARPA to develop simulation software for the forthcoming DARPA Robotics Challenge (DRC) allowed us to leave Willow and start OSRF in 2012. We were helped by a generous donation from Willow to cover our initial operating expenses, but it was the DRC contract that made it possible to build a team and create a sustainable organization around it. The DRC program alone supported ~10 people working on Gazebo and related projects for more than 3 years.



When Willow was winding down in early 2013, we were able to hire the core ROS team and thereby take responsibility for ROS itself only because of a grant that we had through the National Robotics Initiative. The grant was 1/3 funded by the US Army, with the rest funded equally by NASA and the National Science Foundation (NSF). Taken together that funding supported ~4 people for 3 years to maintain ROS and to start work on ROS 2.



Its impossible to know for sure, but its reasonable to wonder whether ROS and/or Gazebo would have become orphaned projects had we not received that DOD funding at that time. Perhaps the community or another organization would have picked them up. But in my opinion, probably not.



Since that time weve worked (and continue to work) on a number of DOD-funded programs from various agencies. Weve never tried to hide that support; you can find 4 DOD agency logos on our [sponsors page](https://www.openrobotics.org/sponsors/). Weve also never tried to hide the work that we do for those agencies. Quite the opposite: in all these programs the code and documentation that we develop is 100% open source. To my mind, thats the best possible use of public money thats paying for R&D: build technology that can be used by everyone, everywhere.



In addition, the fact that our government funding, DOD and otherwise, is all channeled into open source products has an important consequence: we cannot work on anything that is classified or subject to export control. As you might imagine, this constraint rules out pretty much anything related to weapons or other offensive technology. We go further, judging each potential project based on the apparent intent of the people running the program and the likely application of the technology. Over the years we have declined many funding opportunities because we found them to disagree with our personal and organizational principles.



Of course it would be naive in the extreme to imagine that technology that we develop and release wont ever be used in a manner that we disagree with. Im quite sure that somewhere out there are weaponized robots running ROS and being simulated with Gazebo. We cant stop that from happening and still make our software open source; clause 6 of the [Open Source Definition](https://opensource.org/osd) says, The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. But we can and do choose not to build those robots or simulations ourselves.



Today, thanks in large part to the maturation of Gazebo and the growing promise of ROS 2, Open Robotics enjoys significant support from non-government sources. In 2013 government funding, primarily from DOD, made up more than 85% of our funding. In 2017 that figure was less than 25%. In the future could we move completely away from government funding? Perhaps, but its worth considering all the implications: while were very grateful for the support of our industry sponsors, they generally (and understandably) are asking us for near-term improvements and releases that will support their product or service offerings. Those priorities are vital to keep us grounded in the needs of today, but its primarily government R&D programs that give us the time and flexibility to take on bigger, riskier, more speculative projects. And in the US, those programs are primarily funded by DOD. Id prefer to see agencies like NSF have a larger budget, but I'm not in a position to make that happen.



Its worth noting that this debate is an old one. For an eloquent argument on the other side, see [Ben Kuipers](https://web.eecs.umich.edu/~kuipers/opinions/no-military-funding.html) at Michigan. Ben doesnt just make the argument, he lives it, which I greatly respect.











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[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

Gary Edwards via ros-users


@gerkey I would like to thank you for that great explanation. My first feeling was the same than @Martin_Guenther, but being able to see where OSRF came from and that you keep an effort on considering all implications helps on my peace of mind.





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[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

Gary Edwards via ros-users
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Thanks @tkruse and @Martin_Guenther to put the issue on the table, and thanks @gerkey for your transparent answer (and for your final reference to Ben Kuipers).
As @awesomebytes says, I'm now more peaceful with the subject.





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[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

Gary Edwards via ros-users
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Yes, I'm fine as well now. Thanks @gerkey for clarifying things. I knew some of the back story already, and I don't have a problem with OSRF taking money from DARPA. After all, DARPA funds a lot of US robotics projects without a direct military application. I am also aware that this funding is what kept the core ROS and Gazebo development team afloat, and that any open source technology can be appropriated for military purposes.

I think where a line would be crossed (for me; everyone has to listen to their own conscience and draw their own line) would be if OSRF was directly contributing to weapons technology, or to a project with a thinly veiled pretense which would likely result in a weapon. That's the part of @gerkey's anwer that reassured me the most: that all of your technology (in the military context) remains open source, and that you're judging each potential project on a moral basis. As long as you stick to those principles, there's nothing to worry about. I think you really have to look at potential partner's background to distinguish between a project that's honestly trying to make a contribution to e.g. a Search and Rescue (SAR) robot, and one that's pretending to develop a SAR robot with the intent of repurposing the technology for Search and Destroy.

The announcement of a dedicated "ROS Military" initiative sounded a bit nefarious, but I guess I'll have to wait for ROSCon to find out.

Anyway, let's not hijack this thread any further than we already have. It's really about the ROSCon program, and it looks awesome! :smile:





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[Discourse.ros.org] [General] ROSCon 2018 Program Published

Gary Edwards via ros-users




> Thats the part of @gerkeys anwer that reassured me the most: that all of your technology (in the military context) remains open source, and that youre judging each potential project on a moral basis.



You'll notice that @gerkey did not specify what moral basis is being applied. @gerkey spend a lot of words to explain that taking funds from the DOD is morally ok (or not), which was however not the topic.



The actual problem arises when OSRF actively supports ROS-Military. ROS MIlitary has the goal of improving technology that helps killing for political goals, and in particular do so for the US government. Due to that, it is political, it takes sides in global conflicts. It's not immoral for ROS-Military to exist, it is very transparent about it's goals, including the political aspects. Read the ROSCon program: "The United States military..." Could not be more transparent.



But it is impossible to offer any support to ROS-Military without being political. OSRF can take all the money the DOD wishes to throw at it, OSRF can tolerate the existence of ROS-Military, but it should in no case directly support ROS.Military, and from the ROSCon program it seems that it crossed this line, and nothing in @gerkey s response even denied that.



So any organisation in this world which thinks about sponsoring OSRF one way or the other now has to consider that OSRF helps ROS Military, and thus helps military operations inside and outside the US that protect the American petrol-fuelled way of life.



This is different from taking DOD money or supporting civilian DOD funded projects (setting aside the arguments by Ben Kuipers for the sake of the argument).



ROS-Military is not politically neutral, and it is not civilian. People will die thanks to ROS Military. People will die for political goals of the US. That's all fair enough to participate in for any individual at their discretion, but not for OSRF, IMHO.











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